First, a word about what elitism is not. I’m not sure whether it’s my lack of clarity in writing or because populists have preconceived notion about what an elitist is that they have trouble discarding — perhaps it’s a little of both — but there seems to be a lot of misconceptions about my line of thinking.
In my last post, I tried to clarify my thoughts on Sarah Palin’s populism in relation to Benjamin Franklin’s elitism. I went to great lengths to assure Adam Graham that it had absolutely nothing to do with her lack of formal education — which I think is largely a waste of time to the self-motivated man — but everything to do with her lack of pursuit of excellence. Kavon immediately replied to me, saying that I would probably think less of him (or of Ronald Reagan) because of his lack of formal education.
Um…
Elitism, in its virtuous form, is a state of mind. It is about setting one’s self apart from the masses to pursue intelligence, wisdom, achievement, and excellence. It is not content with simply being satisfied with one’s birth lot, but is always striving to reach the next step on the ladder. It is self-reliant. It is morally searching and fearless, and rejects misguided notions of egalitarianism. A professional truck driver who philosophizes on the side, partakes in learned and intellectually honest political debate online, and builds a comfortable life for himself can potentially be an elitist. A professor who advocates reparations for slavery, postmodern Marxism, and single-payer health care may not be.
Modern liberalism and virtuous elitism are incompatible. Modern liberalism spits upon productive achievement, fetishizes egalitarianism, and celebrates the average rather than the exceptional.
So does populist ‘conservatism.’
There is nothing wrong with being a ‘Joe Six-Pack,’ necessarily, but why glorify his experiences? Why say that being a professor, a senator, a political consultant, a reporter — is not a “real job”? Despite the abundance of high-profile exceptions, most people actually work their way up from the bottom to be senators, governors, and even presidents. Instead of using her position to speak of the virtues of exceptionalism, Sarah Palin has used her position to tell the lower classes to, essentially, be content with their lot. That there’s something virtuous in their experiences. [Edit: And that Adam Graham thinks that Veterans' Day is not a celebration of excellence is appalling.]
It’s ironic that populist conservatives claim to admire the Founding Fathers — they were no Joe Six-Packs. They were penetrating thinkers, accomplished authors, philosophers, seasoned statesmen.
The point is not, to echo my earlier statement, that there are lots of neo-Franklins running around. It’s that Sarah Palin shows absolutely no desire to emulate the ideal of Franklin. She’s not even bothering, according to people like William Kristol, to consult with foreign policy experts in preparation for her 2012 run. So I suppose she’s just going to wing it. I don’t think it makes me some sort of snob to suggest that our commander-in-chief should know a thing or two about foreign policy before entering the Oval Office. (Note that I said know a thing or two. I did not say have served in a high-ranking university position concerning foreign policy.)
Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorina — these men and women have shown that they care about the Franklin Ideal. They are men and women of excellence, regardless of what you want to say about their politics. They have their low points — both personally and in their politics — but they do not rebuke the virtuous elitist ideal; they have an unquenchable desire to excel.
That is what I want to see in our candidates: a desire to excel.
And that’s what makes me so depressed about the rise of Sarah Palin.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
The irony about Sarah Palin is that a party that is opposed to affirmative action has chosen as their savior someone who was chosen ony because she was a woman.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Wow Alex, as of late you seem to be warming up, ever so slightly to Gov. Romney. Am I mistaken?
June 30th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
I think Palin and her fans have a “desire to excel”. However, there are two things that separate their ideals from where you stand. The first is that they often have very different ideals about what it means for an individual (or a country) to “excel”. You touched upon this in your post when you said that they encourage people to be content with their lot; their priorities are different (often religiously informed), and they ten to associate education and a drive to excel with a worldliness that they reject as a matter of moral principle. The second thing is that they see no reason for extensive education as a vehicle to excellence. They tend to go on much simpler ideological frameworks to strive for “success”, whether it happens to be through the power of prayer or the recitation of bulleted talking points on economic policy – or some similar form of received wisdom. Palin and those like her do not value extensive study of a topic because, in their ignorance, they consider a few superficial “principles” sufficient to guide decision making regardless of the details of the situation. To justify this simple-mindedness, they will trot out historical examples of “elites” who have failed in government without explaining how the lack of these “elite” characteristics makes the “Joe Sixpack” more likely to succeed (watch and see!) – because they can’t.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Only in comparison to Palin and Huckabee.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
There is a difference between simple ideas like less government and simple people like Sarah Palin.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Big S has a good point. The book of Ecclesiastes actually says that life is worthless and pointless and that we shouldn’t be concerned with it; that we should direct our resources toward the Kingdom of God. For the true believer, that’s a comforting delusion. For the rest of us, that’s horrifying.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Elitism, in its virtuous form, is a state of mind. It is about setting one’s self apart from the masses to pursue intelligence, wisdom, achievement, and excellence.
And saying, “I am above these people and fit to rule them.” I think your virtuous elitism went out sometime after Marie Antoinette was sliced off. If you really think that wins elections, you’re in for a rude awakening. The character of leader in respecting people and speaking to them like they are humans beings rather than the peons that sit below them as the elites is key to winning elections.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Alex Knepper Says: Only in comparison to Palin and Huckabee
There is hope for you yet
Go Mitt!
June 30th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
And saying, “I am above these people and fit to rule them.”
As opposed to “I am completely average, not excellent or exceptional whatsoever. Excellence should play no role in determining our rulers.”
The character of leader in respecting people and speaking to them like they are humans beings rather than the peons that sit below them as the elites is key to winning elections.
Woah woah woah, this wasn’t a post about election strategy.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
That’s not really my point…or at least not the biggest part of it. There are, however, interesting religious parallels to this argument fully within the context of Christianity. Think about the divide between Roman Catholicism (which values scholarship and experience a great deal when considering leadership), and modern American charismatic/evangelical Christianity, where the personal experience of each believer has greater importance than any scholar’s interpretation of scripture. It’s not surprising that the Huckabee supporter finds himself on the touchy-feely side of this theological divide, or the corresponding side of the elitist/populist political divide.
June 30th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Omg did Alex just say he’d support Willard Mitt over Huck & Sare?! I called it months ago
.
He will be a Rombot by the end of 2011 – elitist’s welcome
.
June 30th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Alex,
So what is excellence, and how does one go about pursuing it?
June 30th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
11 – Woah woah woah. Not so fast. He’s the best of three awful options.
12 – Being the best you can be, at all times?
June 30th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Alex,
Being the best in what respect? I ask because the examples you highlight tend to be limited to things that interest you. Can a person be excellent by say, being the best goalie, plumber, or ditch digger they can be?
June 30th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Nobody is choosing to be the best they can be if all they do with their lives is dig ditches…or type in numbers at a computer, which is what my part-time summer job is…although yes, when you are stuck at that job…which is hopefully not all you intend to do with your life…you should do the best you can at that while you are there.
June 30th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Alex,
So is a person’s pursuit of excellence confined to his career or professional ambition?
June 30th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Did Mitt Romney ever show a sign that he can write a book worthy of Ben Franklin? I haven’t seem him show “the desire to excel” except keep sending signals through his surrogates that he’s entitled to the GOP nomination, he’s second-in-line and petulantly sulk that this or that guy took the nomination away from him which is rightfully his.
What of his business experience? Well, he’s a silver spooner who was born into a wealthy n powerful family. That doesn’t diminish whatever business success he may’ve had but it doesn’t compare well with a man or woman from humble background who built their career from scratch without any support, in fact against outright opposition.
Hi winter Olympics? Dwarves in comparison to the humongous pipeline deal that Gov.Palin has accomplished. BTW, Olympics and some such games are held every four years. Does that mean all such organizers are ready-made Presidential material?
“Why say that being a professor, a senator, a political consultant, a reporter — is not a “real job”? “– Can you provide a reference as to where Sarah said this?
“She’s not even bothering, according to people like William Kristol, to consult with foreign policy experts in preparation for her 2012 run.”
First of all, we don’t know if she’s even running for 2012. Secondly, she has a full time job of being a governor of the largest state, unlike Mitt Romney who has the time to frequent tanning saloons. Thirdly, this is too damn early to consult any “experts” of any kind. She’ll consult appropriate experts when/if she decides to run and on her own plan n schedule, not the plan you’ve chalked up for her.
If the desire to excel is the norm, Sarah is the exemplary touchstone of it. Here’s a women whose parents were lower middle class, who had no wealth or power, who didn’t go the big universities and was content to raise a family and be employed in humble jobs. Then, she decided to get into politics and she did an outstanding job in every position she held. In ten years, she moved from a local councilor to governor and VP nominee. If that doesn’t show desire to excel, I don’t know what does.
June 30th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
16 – No, which is why I said “all they do.”
In fact, I already addressed this in my article…………………..
June 30th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
17 – Are you kidding? He was first in his class at Brigham Young, he turned around the Olympics, was the CEO of a company, and the governor of a state. That’s not a desire to excel?
June 30th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Alex,
So can a person whose career is ordinary, whose interests are ordinary, and whose ambitions are ordinary, but who virtue is exemplary be considered “excellent?”
June 30th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
I see a couple of problems with the way you’re formulating your argument:
First, you use elitism or elitist, but not elite. Elitism, as a political philosophy, carries a lot of baggage with it, including the idea that the masses should have no part of government. This contradicts the Declaration of Independence, which states that Government derives it’s powers from the consent of the governed. Now, this is clearly not what you mean when you say, “Benjamin Franklin was a brilliant, worldly man with an elitist strain.” or, “But the elitism of the Founders is why we’re supposed to admire them.” But by claiming that the Founding Fathers were elitists, rather than elites, you strongly imply that they held a particular political philosophy. (I would suggest the world exceptionalism as a replacement for elitism for describing your own philosophy. I think it retains the same meaning, without the negative connotations.)
Second, you need to address the actual political beliefs of the Founding Fathers, and relate them to the modern political spectrum. These quotes have a very populist feel: “I think agriculture the most honorable, because the most independent, of all professions.”–Benjamin Franklin, and “Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God, if ever he had a chosen people, whose breasts he has made his peculiar deposit for substantial and genuine virtue.”–Thomas Jefferson.
Third, I think Franklin is a poor choice as an example of the qualities you look for, because he was an exception even among the Founding Fathers. If he is the standard for elites, then I think every American politician alive today is a Joe Sixpack in comparison.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:02 am
I would argue that the virtuous man is, by definition, someone with great interests. He is potentially great — I’d need a more specific example, perhaps too specific for this discussion — but not as great as the man who is both virtuous and ambitious. The man who is ambitious but not virtuous in his ideals is not as good as the man who is virtuous in his ideals but not ambitious, though.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:03 am
I don’t know where you got that very twisted view of Sarah Palin’s views on excellence because you never provide any links to what you attribute to her. Gov.Palin celebrates her humble background not because it’s humble but because it show how great a distance she has had to travel to overcome it. She speaks about Joe-Six-Packs but doesn’t tell them to stay where they are. She’s for freedom because she believes that any Joe-Six-Pack should have the courage to rise and go after what he/she wants and achieve it. She believe that a big government can crush all such Joe-Six-Packs who want to better themselves and hence, he wants the government out of the way. I don’t know where you got that she doesn’t want to excel meme.
In fact, in all her interviews whenever she has spoken of being a woman candidate, she has always said that she wanted to work extra hard to overcome any perceived deficiencies. That seems to me quite like a “desire to excel.”
Again, applying your own logic to Romney, has he built a new product like Bill Gates or started a company from scratch like Meg Whitman? Is he a philosopher or a scientist or a thinker? No. So, where exactly has he shown “the desire to excel”? He was a good businessman perhaps, but given his family that’s a given.I don’t grudge him his high birth and yes, even with family wealth it takes skill to run a business but that still doesn’t show any extraordinary excellence, as compared to a Sarah Palin. Given his background, all one can say is he did not screw up like many silver spooners and trust fund babies.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:04 am
I’m going to bed. I promise I’ll address the other comments — including 21 — tomorrow morning/early afternoon…depending upon when I wake up. Work from 2-8, though.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:07 am
Are you kidding? He was first in his class at Brigham Young, he turned around the Olympics, was the CEO of a company, and the governor of a state. That’s not a desire to excel?
Hmm, let’s see. Sarah Palin is governor of a state too, she has fought corruption in both the parties, she turned around a moribund pipeline deal and got it going, so how come she doesn’t show “a desire to excel” to you but he does?
July 1st, 2009 at 12:09 am
So can a person whose career is ordinary, whose interests are ordinary, and whose ambitions are ordinary, but who virtue is exemplary be considered “excellent?”
Exactly. Is there any place for moral excellence or are we all fans of Ted Bundy because he was quite good at killing?
July 1st, 2009 at 12:15 am
#17 prose; wow, where to begin,
First, when have you ever seen Romney sulk because he lost the election. 2) No silver spoon. 3) Made capital to businesses that you probably shop or eat at.4)The 2002 Winter Olympics rose up from the ashes to become the most successful in history. Other than that, what are talking about?
Get on Wikipedia and read about him instead of believing lies others tell you.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:19 am
Thanks, Alex. I’d also be interested in hearing if I’ve got the resistance to Alex’s comments pegged right. Is it centered around the idea of elitism? Or am I completely off base?
July 1st, 2009 at 12:55 am
Alex, you break my heart.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:15 am
Alex, women who choose family over career in their 20′s and 30′s are not failures…they are our wives and mothers, they are conservative women.
Alex, if you cannot understand this, you have no reason to be a Republican and you should resign from this site.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:54 am
wtf???
Kris unless I’m totally missing something that was a real cheap shot there….way to keep it classy.
July 1st, 2009 at 5:27 am
The ad is unclear, but Mitt Romney will be on Cavuto, or Beck tonight being Wednesday on Fox starting at 4pm eastern. Just keep watching a man who gets it and loves this country and truly
Mitt will be on Fox either Cavuto or Beck starting at 4pm Wednesday. Watch the man who gets it, is humble, honest, and credible for this country’s president in 2012…All republicans are not created equal. Remember who warned : Washington is Broken!!!!It was Mitt Romney….
July 1st, 2009 at 6:13 am
Paulee #32 I just saw an ad on FOX that said Romney will be on the Bret Baer show. 5pm E.T., it’s on after Cavuto and before Beck.
Maybe the other shows too, but only heard the ad for Baer.
July 1st, 2009 at 6:16 am
Special Report for a special bloke
.
July 1st, 2009 at 7:53 am
Its interesting that suddenly Romneybots are silent when challenged about their talking points. Nobody wants to reply why the things he does are a sign of his indubitabte excellence but if somebody else does achieve equal or better feats, they don’t count at all.
July 1st, 2009 at 8:03 am
Alex you are making some really good arguments here. Keep up the good fight.
July 1st, 2009 at 8:13 am
35,
or perhaps people just like sleeping. Or perhaps it is that your comment comes off as slightly insane. Or perhaps it is that someone already responded. Or perhaps it is all three.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:12 am
prose, you were summarily answered by Alex in 19 and lkv in 27. Their answers were on point and correct. Just because you don’t like them, just because they make you uncomfortable because they don’t fit your false views of Romney, doesn’t mean that any of us should waste any more time responding to your false attacks.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:22 am
For some of us, we believe one of the things we take from this earth is Knowledge. Why not get as much as possible, while here?
I guess I don’t need to cash in my kids college funds, since it’s still ok to get higher education, and become ‘elite’
July 1st, 2009 at 9:30 am
prose,
OK, what about that ‘pipeline’? do, tell me about the candidan company that got the lions share of it, and exxon, who still needs to finish cleanup from years ago. What was her payday for that? And are you really that ignorant of the olympics that were mired in debt, mismanagment and fraud, that you don’t know what this turn around king acutally did? I live in Salt Lake. I was here. Yes, they do come around every 4 years. But they are bogged down in debt, corruption, payoffs, etc. SLC has been the only one to turn a profit for the host city.
Silver spoon? how so? Back in the 50′s 60, a CEO was not paid the same as a CEO of today. Yes, they were upper middle class, and comfortable. But were you aware that Romney put himself through school? I suppose not. Were you also aware that he did a double degree at harvard, while working to support his growing family? I guess you over looked that tidbit as well. You you also aware of the charity work he does with his money? Not taking a salary as govenor, or as CEO of Olympics, and had said he would not take one as President. You see some get into politics to become rich. Others get into politics to serve. Romney serves.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:32 am
Prose, and I seriously doubt Palins book will be a work of excellence. She needs a ghost writer to help her. Mitt can at least write on his own.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:33 am
Prose, I want someone crazy smart running MY country. not some bumpkin who thinks swigging beer and shooting the cans is a grand pasttime.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:47 am
Palin story sparks GOP family feud
By Jonathan Martin
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=33D91FFD-18FE-70B2-A87D66E6D1BFE37B
July 1st, 2009 at 10:10 am
My father’s ambition in life was to be a good cop who did his job well and protected the community.
He was a member of MENSA and scored a 1580 on the SAT (back in the 70′s). However his ambition was to be a cop because that was his role model growing up as an Irish Catholic on the East Coast.
I’m proud of my father and I don’t think his life was less meaningful because he didn’t devote his life to power, money or a glamourous career. He devoted his life to service and he saved lives although he didn’t receive thanks or adequate pay.
My grandmother had the same attitude as Alex. She thought my father’s was a wasted life because he was only a cop and died young instead of being a doctor, a professor or a lawyer. However I believe that we aren’t qualified to make those sorts of judgments.
A man’s life and man’s worth aren’t determined based on our own culturally narrow opinions.
July 1st, 2009 at 10:39 am
MSNBC Video: Palin’s ‘raw talent’
Vanity Fair’s Todd Purdum talks about his story on Gov. Sarah Palin and her campaign missteps with GOP Strategist Nicolle Wallace.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/31670487#31670487
July 1st, 2009 at 10:47 am
Doug,
Hear, hear!
July 1st, 2009 at 11:18 am
The Best Republican Brawl In A Long, Long While
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/best-republican-brawl-in-a-long-while-i.html#more
Palin – The Horror
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/palin-the-horror.html
Kristol And The DSM Defense
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/kristols-defense.html
And The Story The MSM Still Won’t Touch
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/and-the-story-the-msm-still-wont-touch.html
One Other Real Weirdness
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/one-other-real-weirdness.html
The Odd Lies Of Sarah Palin XXVIII: Closed Door Meetings
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/the-odd-lies-of-sarah-palin-xxviii.html
The Odd Lies Of Sarah Palin XXIX: Firing Bitney
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/the-odd-lies-of-sarah-palin-xxix-firing-bitney.html
BlogTalkRadio: ABC’s Rick Klein
ABC News’ senior political reporter Rick Klein joined the Morning Media Menu today to discuss some of the week’s big political headlines, including Al Franken’s new Senate seat and Sarah Palin’s rough profile in Vanity Fair. “In my estimation, if you’re going to make a comeback, you have to go away first,” Klein said of Palin.
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlDC/online_media/morning_media_menu_abcs_rick_klein_120521.asp
July 1st, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Alex, if you cannot understand this, you have no reason to be a Republican and you should resign from this site.
Wow.
National Review has religious rightists, intellectuals, paleocons and even a monarchist, but you dislike it that I have a differing opinion from your own — one that half of the commenters agree with? Goodness.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Doug 44, I agree completely with your assessment. I dropped out of law school two years ago because I didn’t want to work 60+ hours a week and miss my daughter’s childhood. I put the greatest value on my time as being a good husband and father. I felt that for me a career in law was imcompatible with being a good father and husband.
Now my wife and I own a business. My responsibilities in the business don’t take much time and so I spend most of my time taking care of our girls.
Even though my endeavors are fairly mundane, I don’t want to settle for mediocrity.
And I don’t want mediocrity in my leaders.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Virtuous elitism sounds like a big ol’ oxymoron. Guess I’ll read the piece now – I’m intrigued.
July 1st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I’m glad I went back and read this, it could be one of my very favorites. I think the criticism is not against Palin, it is against Alaska. Alaska is not known for producing statesmen. Palin is very accomplished compared to other Alaskans. She would be a fine neighbor and citizen anywhere in the U.S., but in Alaska she stands out for her statesmanship. Now, if you take the best and brightest from all the 50 states, Palin would not make the final 3. Nor would I, nor would Alex, nor would most of us. Romney very likely might. Now, statesmanship I’m talking about. Competence, class, experience, judgement, firmness of personal convictions, intelligence, communication skills, success in one’s personal life. An understanding and adherence to true American principles.
Striving for excellence used to define America, it’s true it now seems to be a pretty dead concept. I want it resuscitated too. It is that important. Having a truly qualified president who represents the best and brightest and most successful America has to offer, is a very very exciting concept to me. It would do for America what putting a man on the moon did for many – it just might make politics appear to be a high and noble calling again that many aspire to, but only a few gain the excellence necessary to legitimitely attain. Public service for public service’s sake, not for self-enrichment or power grabbing or cronyism, the low grade stuff we are seeing out of Obama and friends. I could go on because this is such a desirable and exciting concept for me.
July 1st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
30 Kris Lorelli is ALSO greatly appreciated for his spontaneous and touching tribute to motherhood. You don’t see THAT anymore and it takes a special wisdom to acknowledge the importance of it.
Alex is among a growing majority of people who don’t understand or respect motherhood. Some people overlook the importance of simple things like water, marriage, sunshine, motherhood….take it away though, and nobody lasts very long.
July 1st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I think that Alex respects his own mother a great deal. He talks about her with love and devotion.
July 1st, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Great. I’m glad he respects his own mother and doesn’t think she chose to be an underachiever by raising him. Y’know?
July 1st, 2009 at 9:40 pm
When did I say that raising children is underachieving..?
July 1st, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Kris pulled that wonderful straw man out of his ass.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Mcon,
Most women who vote Republican or enter Republican politics, have chosen to have families and place them first in their 20′s and 30′s.
A lot of Republican women start their careers later in life, and accusing them of not wanting to excel is not good for our party or this site. Not every Republican woman has led lives like Senator’s Hutchinson and Dole, who who chose not to carry a child. Most Republican women have lived lives like Sarah Palin, Ann Romney and Marsha Blackburn.
Alex, yes I am very concerned that 90% of Republicans disagree with you, yet only 50% of this site. Maybe you have something to do with that. Think about it.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:24 am
Did I miss something? I didn’t see Alex diss motherhood anywhere.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm
No Martha, Alex and company truly did not diss motherhood per se, but there is unfortunately a sentiment across the political spectrum that suggests that mothers are politically inferior in the political world. Also, many on this site truly do not appresiate the diverse contributions that mothers make to our party. In my country, mothers are organizing picnics, parties, fund-raisers, auctions, guest speakers and parade floats. At the same Republican mothers are also raising Republican children while helping out their churches and local charities. While, none of these mother may ever be as successful as Mrs. Palin, they are an important part of our party and at least Kristofer can recognize this.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
OJ. We all recognize it, including Alex.