Dr. George Tiller of the Women’s Health Care Services clinic in east Wichita, Kansas, was shot to death earlier this morning in the lobby of the Reformation Lutheran Church. Tiller, who recently was in the news when a Wichita jury ruled that he was not guilty of illegal abortion on 19 criminal charges, operated one of the few clinics in the country that perform partial-birth abortion. Dr. Tiller had also made headlines in 2005 when Christin Gilbert, a 19-year-old woman with Down Syndrome , died after a multi-day abortion procedure performed at Tiller’s facility. In 1993, Tiller survived an attack by radical activist Rachelle Shannon, suffering gunshot wounds to both arms.
People of all political and ideological stripes must unite in the condemnation of this senseless act of violence. Regardless of what the actual account and motive turn out to be, it is already being shaped politically by left-wing blogs like the Huffington Post as an act of fundamentalist violence by a typical Pro-Lifer. Blogger Andrew Sullivan has already used this tragedy to attack people of the Christian faith, labeling the crime ‘Christianist Terrorism’ despite knowing nothing about the shooter or the motive behind this crime. This is shameless politicizing of a tragic death by liberals, and it should stop. I call on the Huffington Post, the Daily Kos, Sullivan, and all blogs of all political leanings to join together in condemning this crime and also call on them not to cheapen Dr. Tiller’s memory by using his death to launch disgusting ad hominem attacks on the peaceful members of the Pro-Life Movement.
This death is tragic for both sides of the abortion issue. For Pro-Choicers, a person who fought for womens’ reproductive rights has been murdered for his beliefs and the liberty he stood for. For Pro-Lifers, a fundamentalist has once again hijacked the agenda, and cast a dark cloud on reasonable moral objection to abortion at a time when more Americans then ever before are identifying as Pro-Life. But most of all this death is tragic for Dr. Tiller’s family, his wife, children, and grandchildren who will now be deprived of their husband, father, and grandfather. My thoughts and prayers are with them during this horrible time. Nothing justifies this violent act, and nothing justifies the shameless propagandizing of this death for political purposes.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Senseless?
Please.
If we apply simple logic, the act was completely justified under pro-life beliefs.
If we affirm that self-defense is a valid reason for killing.
If we affirm that abortion is murder.
If we affirm that it is justified to shoot a grown man plunging a knife into another grown man.
If we affirm that an unborn child is as valid and worthy a life as a grown man.
Then we affirm that it is valid to shoot a grown man plunging a knife into an unborn baby.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Very well put Max….
May 31st, 2009 at 5:21 pm
are you saying you condone it Alex?
May 31st, 2009 at 5:21 pm
No. I am pro-choice. If I were pro-life, I would condone it, though.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Knepper,
Your argument doesn’t hold apply to this situation because well, Tiller was attending church at the time and not engaged in the action.
Self-defense as a legal principle is limited to certain circumstances.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
A Catholic pro-lifer once told me that, secretly, most pro-lifers are rather ambivalent about bombing abortion clinics and shooting abortionists and that they can see how it would be justified. I told him that I had that suspicion anyway, and that it really doesn’t make any sense to oppose such things, under pro-life belief systems.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Your argument doesn’t hold apply to this situation because well, Tiller was attending church at the time and not engaged in the action.
I disagree; he’d declared his intent to abort again, and he’d aborted in the past without remorse.
But either way, that only begs the question: do you think that it would be okay to shoot him while he was engaged in the act of an abortion?
May 31st, 2009 at 5:26 pm
No, because abortion is currently, whether I like it or not, lawful and cannot be construed by a reasonable person as unlawful at this time.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:28 pm
So morality is determined by the law? Is your duty to the law or to morality and God?
May 31st, 2009 at 5:30 pm
1)
Please – pro-lifers don’t beleive in murder – not even if the person beiing murdered is a murderer. A lot of pro-lifers would have loved to seen Tiller stopped, and a lot of them would want him in jail. However, almost none of them would support this senseless act of violence (and I would note that a large number of the most avid pro-lifers are also anti-death penalty – I’m not one of those people, but still…).
The fallacy of your argument is that it assumes a utilitarian thought process in regard to who should live and die – and the entire point of being pro-life it that human life is too precious to apply view through a utilitarian framework.
If life is universally precious, then George Tiller’s life is just as precious as an unborn baby. Anyone who would shoot another human being in cold blood and outside the law has no business calling themself “pro-life”.
Can we please drop the politics and move on…the man is dead, and we have no business cheapening his memorr.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:31 pm
abortion is legal, so self-defense would not apply, regardless of dr. tiller’s intent to abort again.
although, how was he able to conduct partial-birth abortion? didn’t bush sign a ban on that? does someone know how that applies? can states go around the ban or do i not understand the ban as state?
May 31st, 2009 at 5:36 pm
“So morality is determined by the law? Is your duty to the law or to morality and God?”
Hahah, nice try Alex.
What I personally feel is moral may not necessarily be affirmed by law. However, I would argue that abiding by the law, whether one has a moral disagreement with it, is the ultimate compliance with morality.
My duty is to the law…because that’s the “moral” thing to do. Don’t know why you asked me about God…
May 31st, 2009 at 5:44 pm
10 – So you oppose the death penalty in all circumstances and would think that shooting an intruder is evil, then, correct? You oppose murder in all cases?
11 – Morality is determined by law?
12 – So you do say that morality is determined by law? That’s rather horrifying. Funny that the atheist here is the one who believes in strict standards of morality, while you, the Christian, are the subjectivist.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:47 pm
question wasn’t mccain the same age in 08 that the great president Ronald ran for president and won ?. I miss president Ronald wish he was in the white house now!
May 31st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
#14 Huh?
Alex, did you just infer that I’m a Christian from the fact that I’m pro-life?
So to believe that it is moral to follow the law regardless of whether the law conflicts with one’s moral beliefs is conceding that the law determines morality?
May 31st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
No great loss.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:51 pm
There are situations in which it is appropriate to break the law. Also, morality exists independent from law.
I would not avoid taxation, for instance, but I would not condemn those who do.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:54 pm
The sad truth of the matter is that SOME pro-lifers would feel this was justifiable (making a mockery of the term “pro-life”), while others would not. My belief system doesn’t allow me to presume or impose my beliefs on another, so I would have to follow the law in this case, though I find such an individual morally bankrupt and a purveyor of evil (perhaps through ignorance, perhaps with malice, but since I have no way to know, I presume the former).
Politically and morally, I think it’s unwise for those of the pro-life community to not condemn his murder. To do otherwise begins the process of blurring the lines (at least in perception) between those who merely seek to preserve innocent life and the radical Islamists who revel in tortuous murder.
May 31st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
“There are situations in which it is appropriate to break the law. Also, morality exists independent from law.”
I’d agree that personal moral beliefs exist independent from law but in terms of how the morals in which a functional society are to be applied? With so many differing opinions as to what is moral and immoral, the only way in which a society can avoid being overrun by vendetta-type behavior is if people follow the principle that it is moral to follow the law, regardless of one’s personal beliefs.
“I would not avoid taxation, for instance, but I would not condemn those who do.”
Huh? I agree that the degree of condemnation should be limited given my personal views on taxation but to not condemn at all those who are willfully breaking laws that those of us follow despite the fact that we share their views on taxation?
May 31st, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Gravely Wicked [Robert P. George]
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDM5NGYyYWMxZDY3NWFmYjhjZmJiNTI2YmRjZmRlYWE=
Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. “Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.” For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller’s life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our “weapons” in the fight to defend the lives of abortion’s tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit.
— Robert P. George is McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Oh, I strongly disagree with the contention that a wicked life is precious.
I’d slaughter OBL if I got the chance. I’d love to slide little pins across him, slowly torturing him until he died.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:09 pm
I have to go; I’ll come back to this later.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:10 pm
#6, I have ambivalent feelings here. I think George Tiller should have faced the death penalty for his long record of murder.
However I don’t support vigilantism. He should have been arrested and executed by the appropriate authorities.
It is not our place to assume the role of the lawful government even if the government chooses to ignore its responsibilities.
However if someone was present as Tiller was committing murder of the unborn I think it would be morally appropriate to use non-lethal force to stop him.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Adam,
According to the results from these 2007 Pew polls, that is not true.
Capital Punishment’s Constant Constituency: An American Majority
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=231
An Enduring Majority: Americans Continue to Support the Death Penalty
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=272
Redd,
The PBA ban, which was upheld by the Supreme Court two years ago, only prohibits a specific procedure, not late-term abortions.
Most doctors today get around that symbolic restriction by delivering stillborn fetuses.
Shots assist in aborting fetuses
Lethal injections offer legal shield
In response to the Supreme Court decision upholding the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, many abortion providers in Boston and around the country have adopted a defensive tactic. To avoid any chance of partially delivering a live fetus, they are injecting fetuses with lethal drugs before procedures.
http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/women/articles/2007/08/10/shots_assist_in_aborting_fetuses?mode=PF
May 31st, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I will pray for George Tiller’s soul, his family and the families of his victims.
This man gleefully killed full-term unborn babies as they were being born. He cruelly performed partial birth abortions.
I didn’t know Alex and the others supported partial birth abortions and very late-term abortions. I’d have thought they’d be uncomfortable defending late-term abortions.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:14 pm
As a Catholic pro-lifer, I say this was as disgusting and appalling an act as it was hypocritical. Whether or not you agree with Dr. Tiller on the issue of abortion, the person who did this could not be described as pro-life in any way shape or form. We are a nation of laws, which are meant to protect everyone, Dr. Tiller included. No person should be allowed to take the law into their own hands regardless of the circumstances. This shooter needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of Kansas law.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Obama’s statement:
http://thepage.time.com/obama-statement-on-dr-tillers-death/
STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT ON THE MURDER OF DR. GEORGE TILLER
I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning. However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:21 pm
This is a terrible setback and whoever committed the murder should be punished according to the law. However, Dr. Tiller, who used his techne for immoral and evil purposes, found himself subject to the same moral injustice that he meted out to the children he killed. However, the reaction in the press and society will eventually show that the pro-life movement is held to a much higher standard of moral conduct than the pro-choice movement.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:26 pm
with all the liberals jumping to the conclusion that the shooter is just some christian whacko, what if i jump to the conclusion and theorize that the shooter was the father of one of the late-term aborted kids.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Doug,
Both Alex and I oppose late-second and third trimester abortions. I’m not certain, but I believe Kristofer supports a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy up to the point of birth.
I defended Tiller insofar as he was acting within the law, despite the morally charcoal gray area in which he operated.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:33 pm
#29:
The person in custody is a 51 year old man. Perhaps the father of one of the women who had an abortion?
Or how about this one; the murder has nothing to do with abortion at all. What if Dr. Tiller owed someone money, or cut off the wrong person in traffic? The suspect may be trying to hide their true motive behind the guise of doing over the abortion issue.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Perhaps eventually. But for now I anticipate a deluge of reports featuring ardent pro-lifers who express some sympathy and understanding for the murder of Tiller.
The pro-life movement should back away from describing abortion flatly as murder. That description ignites passions in the self-righteous.
While the label “murder” follows logically as a description for a premeditated act ending the life of a unique human individual, there are also different categories of “murder” under the law.
Abortion is a sin and/or immoral, but the victims of abortion fall into a unique category not only by virtue of their innocence, but also by their biological dependency on their mothers.
Personally, I have come to appreciate the pro-life arguments more and more over time, largely agreeing with the political aims. Yet I also believe that those who perform abortions or seek such procedures believe the unborn to be less than human, more akin to an organ in the body.
Pro-lifers should find a better term for the act than “murder”: “aggravated, premeditated intellectual manslaughter” might be available, for instance…
May 31st, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Not just liberals. I noted that Max condemned Andrew Sullivan for ascribing the crime to a “Christianist” in the second paragraph of this post, but followed in the third paragraph by writing: “… a fundamentalist has once again hijacked the agenda…”
May 31st, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Alex,
I realize that the death penalty has high support (for the record – I support it myself). However, among the activist pro-life movement, especially among Catholics, there are a lot of people who ARE anti-death penalty (these people tend to label themselves “100% Pro-Life” and like to say that they support life “from conception to natural death” – listen for the code words, you will hear them a lot.) I would also note that the Catholic Church’s official position is, in fact, pro-life and anti-death penalty. So if you see a priest and or bishop involved in such activity, I can almost guarantee that they will also oppose the death penalty.
Listen, my overarching point is not about the death penalty, it’s about the idea that this act is consistent with a pro-life thought process. I’m just trying to point out that you can’t say that the Tiller murder is consistent with a pro-life ideology, becasue the entire thought process is based on a rejection of the sort of utilitarian arguments that you used to “justify” the murder.
Assuming that this WAS in fact done as a result of Tiller’s abortion involvement – the wacko that did it clearly agreed with your argument. However, the vast majority of pro-lifers (especially among the religious) do not beleive in that sort of overblown “eye for an eye” mentality.
MOST pro-lifers would in fact say that this murder is a REJECTION of pro-life values. And even those who would like to see the death penalty for late term abortionists would likely still opppose the idea of vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:58 pm
oops – 34 should have been addressed to Aron
May 31st, 2009 at 7:00 pm
…okay – partially to Aron. Responding to Aron’s numbers and Alex’s argument
May 31st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I’m with Heath, no great loss. Certainly not a tragedy, Max. My thoughts and prayers are not with Dr. Death. He chose to make snuffing innocents his life work. What can you say? I would be ashamed if he were my father.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:07 pm
37 -
Murder is a tradgedy – period. I would also be ashamed if he were my father, but that’s no excuse to dance on his grave.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
…and from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the moron who did this likely set the pro-life movement back years, if not decades. That in itself is a tragedy.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:13 pm
[...] #3: Thanks to commenter Tim, Max Twain at [...]
May 31st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
38. The tragedy is what Tiller chose to do with his life. The tragedy is the innocent lives lost at his hand. His life was not exactly innocent. Sorry, I just can’t drum up any tears. I’m not dancing on his grave, I just don’t think it’s a great loss.
I agree that things like this do damage the pro-life movement.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Lee Harvey Oswald – Marxist
Sirhan Sirhan – Palestinian Radical
The Unabomber – Leftist/Anarchist
Daniel Andreas – Environmental Extremist
it’s amazing how these people are NEVER connected to the left when they commit their crimes, but when situations like Tiller happen, the left instantly blames fox news, limbaugh, beck, etc.
amazing. simply amazing.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:20 pm
I wonder whether Heath and Martha believe that Tiller’s murder is more poignant and useful than Tiller’s having met a natural death or death by accident?
May 31st, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Sad for Tiller and his family. This is a terrible thing to have happened, despite Tiller’s evil occupation.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Nutters on the far, far right, nutters on the far far left. Which is why I enjoy the middle. It’s safer here from all the far right religious nuts who will kill someone inside a church.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Bob,
If that was the case, that the shooter was on ‘father’, then my questions would be simple
a. was he MARRIED to the woman who was carrying his baby? If so, there is actual leagal recourse he could have taken prior to the abortion.
If he was not married to her, then he really needed to get a moral reality check.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Martha, I do agree that his life’s chosen work was not an honrable one. But to be gunned down in church, in front of his family – THAT is wrong. I also keep in mind that the doctor did not lure all these women into his office without their understanding of what he did. I do agree, his profession was not one of great thought and honors. But, even he deserved his day in court.
May 31st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Martha said.. “I’m with Heath, no great loss. Certainly not a tragedy, Max. My thoughts and prayers are not with Dr. Death. He chose to make snuffing innocents his life work. What can you say? I would be ashamed if he were my father.”
From what I understand, God’s mercy on us is related to the mercy we show others. I think it would be better for her to include Dr. Tiller in her prayers.
The following is a quote from a mystical interaction between the Lord and St. Faustina. (Private revelation, by the way, must always be subjected to discernment and belief is never required of the faithful, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church)
However, it does seem to illustrate an appropriate example for those who feel that they are so righteous as to happily condemn others.
Jesus to St. Faustina:
“I am love and mercy itself. … Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. … My mercy is greater than your sins, and those of the entire world…”
May 31st, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Jury Finds Kansas Doctor Not Guilty in Abortion Case
http://www.abcnews.go.com/print?id=7192638
May 31st, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Wow, Alex, you are just an angry, bitter little thing against people with whom you disagree, aren’t you? If your imbecilic idea of pro-lifers being violent is true, why aren’t there so many MORE bombings and shootings?
May 31st, 2009 at 9:12 pm
More poignant yes.
More useful absolutely not (it’s akin to the replublicans shooting themselves in the foot over Sotomayor).
May 31st, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Hey everyone, I never said I thought what happened was a good thing. Not at all. Of course he should not have been murdered! I don’t know why anyone would infer from my comments that I think he should have been killed. (?)
I simply said it was no great loss.
May 31st, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Ed. Tiller chose his course in life. Only the Lord can forgive him. Its not up to me to show mercy. I do feel sorry that he chose to do the things he did.
May 31st, 2009 at 9:45 pm
I’m never for murder, but I’m certainly not for the type of killing that he performed in killing babies as they come out of the womb. If there is anything good that can come from this, maybe, just maybe there will be some babies born that otherwise would have been murdered as they begin to rejoice their entrance into earth life.
I haven’t shed any tears yet either!
May 31st, 2009 at 10:33 pm
the left will unload on o’reilly and co. tomorrow, but i wonder, if something happened to dick cheney, would they blame olbermann? would they say olbermann’s attacks on cheney were the cause. something tells me no.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:37 pm
What a shame.
Our nation was not divided (abortion) until our SC decided to involve itself in State’s issues, ironically enough at a time in our nations history when most States were legalizing abortion.
American the sad.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:37 pm
I didn’t know Alex and the others supported partial birth abortions and very late-term abortions. I’d have thought they’d be uncomfortable defending late-term abortions.
I don’t defend late-term abortions.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Wow, Alex, you are just an angry, bitter little thing against people with whom you disagree, aren’t you? If your imbecilic idea of pro-lifers being violent is true, why aren’t there so many MORE bombings and shootings?
I don’t think that’s what pro-lifers are like.
I just mean to say that it’s not really unjustified, under truly pro-life beliefs.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:43 pm
#57 so based on your own logic you support the murder of George Tiller since he was a committed practitioner of very late-term abortions?
May 31st, 2009 at 10:44 pm
I’ve said a prayer for Tiller in recognition of the fact that we are all sinners and should hope for the final repentance of all men. I hope he repented.
That said, while I know that what the shooter did was wrong, I am honestly having a hard time working up a feeling of outrage. Imagine devoting one’s life to the killing of children. Did anyone weep at the passing of Adolf Eichmann?
And what the hell kind of church makes this guy an usher?
May 31st, 2009 at 10:47 pm
59 – According to the article Aron posted, late-term abortions could only be performed to save the life of the mother or preserve her good health: “Kansas law allows abortions after a fetus can survive outside the womb only if two independent doctors agree that it is necessary to save a women’s life or prevent “substantial and irreversible” harm to ‘a major bodily function,’ a phrase that has been interpreted to include mental health.”
The jury found him not guilty of all counts against him — in under an hour.
So he was within the confines of appropriate morality, it seems.
If, indeed, he was outside of that and was aborting babies who were able to live for the sake of convenience, then certainly, he deserved to die. But the evidence seems to be quite to the contrary.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Alex,
#61, are you saying the law determines what is moral?
May 31st, 2009 at 10:51 pm
If George W Bush had been assassinated perhaps some would have also said “no great loss” as his actions directly caused far more innocent life to be destroyed than Tiller did (who was acquitted in any event). I would have found someone saying “no great loss” in such a case as horrific as I find the comments of Martha, Illinoisguy and Heath here and many commenters in blogs that Andrew Sullivan links.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:53 pm
birch,
Was Bush intentionally killing innocent people?
May 31st, 2009 at 10:54 pm
The ELCA that Tiller was a member of doesn’t have much to do with Christianity anymore.
His former Church of my denomination excommunicated him for unrepentance in continuing his murders.
Tiller committed some tens of thousands of late-term abortions.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:56 pm
63 – Unless Bush was the one shooting them or planting IED’s, the most he could be accused of is INDIRECTLY causing the deaths. Looking at Sadam’s history of dealing with his own people, he likely saved more lives in the long run than were lost, but I’m just pointing this out because the meaning of words matters.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:56 pm
61 – That’s kind of funny. See my #9. I was saying that it was within the confines of morality, period. I believe in abortion rights to the point of viability. Re-evaluate what I said within that context.
62 – Bush doesn’t target innocents — which is much different than how pro-lifers view abortionists. That’s a silly comparison.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Oops, I mean 62 and 63.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:59 pm
The evidence is that Tiller committed ~50,000 late-term abortions. Medical statistics indicate there couldn’t have been that many with legal causes in the US since he began killing.
It’s funny Alex says:
“I don’t defend late-term abortions.”
and then does just that in #61.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:03 pm
the left did cheer a taliban attempt to assassinate cheney and they also made a movie depicting the assassination of bush called ‘death of a president’.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:06 pm
I write all this holding my baby daughter {Hadassah} in my arms by my heart giving Sarah a chance to sleep before the 11:30 PM feeding.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:07 pm
69 – Again, if he truly committed unnecessary late-term abortions, then no, I don’t have any particular problem with the killing.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Am I the only one intellectually honest enough to follow this logic to its proper conclusion?
May 31st, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Birch, what was wrong with what I wrote. I clearly said I don’t condone any murders. I just said that, hopefully, less killing of babies of this nature will happen now. Don’t you hope so?
I further said I haven’t shed any tears…..just telling the truth… have you?
May 31st, 2009 at 11:15 pm
STATEMENT FROM GOVERNOR DAVID A. PATERSON ON THE DEATH OF DR. GEORGE TILLER
http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/press_0531092.html
Governor David A. Paterson issued the following statement on the murder of Dr. George Tiller:
“I was deeply saddened to learn that Dr. George Tiller, a well-known provider of and advocate for women’s health care, was gunned down this morning at his church in Wichita, Kansas. With his murder, we are robbed not only of a dedicated and courageous physician, but also of a husband, father and neighbor. On behalf of all New Yorkers, I would like to express my deepest condolences to Dr. Tiller’s family, friends and community. Our thoughts and prayers are with them during this difficult time.
“Dr. Tiller was targeted for his belief in the right of women to make their own health decisions. He protected that right and sought to ensure that his patients were provided with the medical, emotional and spiritual counsel they needed to make the right choice for themselves and their families. He continued this work despite the threat of harmful retaliation, physical attacks and the destruction of his clinic. We will forever remember his fearlessness, compassion and commitment.
“We in New York are no strangers to these types of attacks and cannot help but to recall Dr. Barnett Slepian, a Buffalo physician murdered in October 1998 for his own commitment to women’s rights. In this era of violence, we must recall the teachings of tolerance and peace and use these lessons to overcome such acts of hatred and desperation.”
May 31st, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Good may come of an evil but as a Christian I’m not going to celebrate the evil. In this case the evil is the murder of George Tiller. I suspect others outside of Christianity share the same value.
I’ve not got the anarchist tinge to accept individuals attempting to enforce justice on their own as a good idea. Unless Tiller was in the middle of an abortion, I don’t think non-authorized use of force is justified.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Alex,
The issue is proper ends AND proper means. As for the ends of this action, I suspect they will be mixed. There probably will be fewer dead children in Wichita, but the pro-life movement is getting a black eye while the left canonizes Tiller the Butcher at a time when the country seems to be coming around to the idea that intentionally killing innocent people is wrong.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:20 pm
65 – Tens of thousands of late-term abortions? Is there a credible source for that claim? Tiller was acquitted by the Kansas courts.
66, 67 – The view of Bush by the indifferent in the hypothetical assassination would be equivalent to how the indifferent here view Tiller.
Bush certainly knew that thousands of innocent people would be killed in the attacks he ordered. There was no ambiguity. If Bush believed the loss of innocent life including children was necessary to protect ourselves or for some greater good, Tiller likewise believed performing abortions was morally justified. And he didn’t murder toddlers so we can presume he didn’t conceive of abortion the same way those shrugging at his murder do.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Ah, yes, the canonization of Tiller the Butcher has begun. From the Patterson quote:
“I was deeply saddened to learn that Dr. George Tiller, a well-known provider of and advocate for women’s health care, was gunned down this morning at his church in Wichita, Kansas. With his murder, we are robbed not only of a dedicated and courageous physician”
I wonder if Gov. Patterson is saddened by the loss of tens of thousands of innocent lives at the hands of Tiller the Butcher? And what is so “courageous” about killing children?
Patterson is just sick.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:23 pm
birch,
Did Bush intentionally target innocents to achieve his objective?
May 31st, 2009 at 11:24 pm
birch,
“And he didn’t murder toddlers so we can presume he didn’t conceive of abortion the same way those shrugging at his murder do.”
Regarding all the children Tiller killed (whether tens of thousands or mere thousands), are you more inclined to weep or shrug?
May 31st, 2009 at 11:28 pm
It seems highly improbable to me that 50,000 women have even had late-term abortions in Kansas.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Alex,
Tiller has been butchering babies since 1973. He had 35+ years to run up his tally.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Suspect supported killing abortion providers, friends say
May 31st, 2009 at 11:34 pm
If he killed just 3 babies a day, 5 days a week, for 50 weeks a year (guy needs a vacation after all that blood) for 35 years, that’s over 26,000 dead babies at his hands.
But I really don’t know how prolific a killer he was.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:34 pm
In 1995 Tiller said the following:
“We have some experience with late terminations: about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years.”
So in the 90′s Tiller by his own admission was killing at least 2,000 late-term babies _each year_ of whom ~92% were healthy.
Most independent estimates are that his career included ~50,000 late-term abortions.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:36 pm
May 31st, 2009 at 11:44 pm
#87, Yeah, expect a crackdown on pro-lifers now from the Obama administration. I’m sure DOJ will use this as pretext to sue and bankrupt pro-life groups. I’m sure Congress will pass more laws to limit the free speech of pro-lifers and prosecute them under RICO statutes. This do this every time something like this happens.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Here’s the audio of Tiller describing how he killed 10,000 late-term babies just in the mid-90′s.
http://www.dr-tiller.com/images/latekills.mp3
May 31st, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Reaction from the left…
George Tiller Killed: Abortion Doctor Shot At Church
***UPDATE*** US Attorney General Eric Holder is dispatching US Marshals to protect abortion clinic and doctors around the country.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/george-tiller-killed-abor_n_209504.html
O’Reilly’s campaign against murdered doctor
The Fox News star had compared Tiller to a Nazi, called him a “baby killer,” and warned of “Judgment Day”
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/
Mary Mapes: No Mercy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-mapes/no-mercy_b_209529.html
Domestic Terrorism Strikes in the Assassination of Dr. George Tiller
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-kraus/domestic-terrorism-strike_b_209537.html
The Murder of Dr. Tiller, a Foreshadowing
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/the-murder-of-dr-tiller-a_b_209562.html
May 31st, 2009 at 11:46 pm
80 – It’s also not like Bush was trying to drive to the supermarket and he accidentally lost control of his car and killed a child. He knew his orders were guaranteed to kill thousands of innocents including children even if they were not the targets.
81 – I can’t imagine I would ever say “no great loss” about a late-term abortion.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Tiller advertised “late abortion care elective”.
http://www.gynpages.com/ACOL/international.html
May 31st, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Reaction from the pro-life movement:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjIzYmQ0ZGY3NTUyNGRjOTI1ZTliOWUyZDc1ZTVlNjI=
“National Right to Life extends its sympathies to Dr. Tiller’s family over this loss of life.
Further, the National Right to Life Committee unequivocally condemns any such acts of violence regardless of motivation. The pro-life movement works to protect the right to life and increase respect for human life. The unlawful use of violence is directly contrary to that goal.”
“The Susan B. Anthony List condemns this anti-life act in the strongest of terms. The heart of the pro-life movement is one founded in love. Without this driving powerful center no justice can possibly be achieved. Authentic progress in women’s rights has always encompassed the protection of human rights of every person across the board. The rights of one human being can never be honored by diminishing or ignoring the rights of another. This week as we gather for our annual June Tea event, themed Love Lets Live, we will lift up George Tiller’s loved ones in prayer.”
Tony Perkins, President of Family Research Council, had this to say:
“We are stunned at today’s news. As Christians we pray and look toward the end of all violence and for the saving of souls, not the taking of human life. George Tiller was a man who we publicly sought to stop through legal and peaceful means. We strongly condemn the actions taken today by this vigilante killer and we pray for the Tiller family and for the nation that we might once again be a nation that values all human, both born and unborn.”
May 31st, 2009 at 11:56 pm
birch,
But Tiller did intentionally kill innocents to achieve his objective. That is a major distinction (even though I don’t agree with the Iraqi war).
(birch) “I can’t imagine I would ever say “no great loss” about a late-term abortion.”
Good. Now do you suppose those babies were more or less innocent than Tiller? Or maybe just the same?
June 1st, 2009 at 12:02 am
birch – you’re being terrible dishonest….as was pointed out earlier, Hussein had killed hundred s of thousands of his own people, and BUSH knew that there was no way that many would be killed in order to bring liberty to Iraq. There is no doubt that he saved thousands of lives, and you’re condemning him for it.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:06 am
Tiller provided baptism services (at a price) for the late-term aborted. If he hadn’t thought the late-term children were persons he’d not have offered baptisms.
However his own comments suggest he thought late-term abortions are murder but that woman are justified in murdering babies who would get in their way up until birth.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:06 am
Doug,
From the article I posted in #49:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:08 am
#97, Can you read?
He advertises elective abortions on late-term fetuses. Are you dumb or something or just tired?
June 1st, 2009 at 12:09 am
Tiller made money off of baptizing babies he had just killed?
Sick. Absolutely sick.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:14 am
A google search showing drtiller.com (currently unresponsive) seems to indicate he would also provide (sell?) pictures of the dead baby to her parents.
I wonder how much money he made doing this crap for all of these years. I wonder if he ever saw these babies in his dreams. I wonder if he ever had doubts or pangs of guilt when he was sitting in church, “worshipping God.”
June 1st, 2009 at 12:24 am
#100. He will be as he stands at the judgement bar before his creator.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:31 am
95 – Now who’s being dishonest? What does the number of people Saddam Hussein killed long ago have to do with our invasion of Iraq? We didn’t attack to stop any loss of Iraqi life, certainly not the already dead. Tiller though, from what I see, did decide to provide abortions after the death of a woman from an illegal abortion. My point is not to condemn Bush so much as to use his hypothetical assassination with a horribly offensive reaction to that as a way to get yourself and others to re-examine your own reaction here which I find abhorrent. I suppose I didn’t succeed.
And of course, regardless of one’s feelings about abortion or the Iraq War, after terrorism it becomes more complicated in that besides other considerations we also don’t want to reward terrorists for their attacks and reinforce violence as a political tool.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:32 am
Doug,
“Late Abortion Care Elective” does not necessarily mean “Post-Viability Abortion Care Elective.” I think you would agree that an elective abortion of a nearly viable 22-week fetus, which would be indisputably legal in Kansas, qualifies as a “late-term abortion.” I was merely drawing attention to the ads of the two other clinics that perform late-term/third trimester abortions. The center in LA defines abortions performed after 18 weeks as “late term.”
June 1st, 2009 at 12:54 am
You were drawing attention?
What are you a commercial for the abortion industry?
Perhaps you should look at these images long and hard and see if there are any of those babies who you think should have been protected.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=aborted%20baby&sa=N&tab=wi&um=1
June 1st, 2009 at 1:09 am
Pictures of aborted fetuses are emotional propaganda tools that make no difference in a rational, logical argument.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:33 am
#105. So we shouldn’t “show” the “truth” because it makes you feel guilty? I guess if we avoid looking at the facts it will make us sleep better at night. Look at rainbows and unicorns when you’re arguing about the slaughtering of innocent human life, whatever takes the guilt away. This is no different than concentration camps for children.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:35 am
You can show it if you want. I don’t feel guilty about early-term abortions. Do you think that pro-choicers get kicks out of murdering children or something? We don’t see it the same way you do.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:42 am
That doesn’t mean you take away the FACTS. If you are going to support late term abortions you very damn well look at it and not shy away from the facts.
June 1st, 2009 at 2:30 am
105. Propaganda? Seeing the end product (pictures of dead babies) of what you support is propaganda? That’s completely assinine. Since when has the reality become propaganda?
June 1st, 2009 at 5:01 am
It’s no different than someone who’s anti-war holding up pictures of dead Iraqis and saying “SEE WHAT YOU SUPPORT!??!!”
How would you feel about reducing support for the Iraq War down to dead bodies?
June 1st, 2009 at 7:22 am
My issue with the photos is how those showing those signs don’t care who sees them. I was driving with my grandson in the car and was suddenly urrounded by those pictures. It took all I had not to punch one of the the f**kers in the face when they tried to give me a pamplet.
My daughter monitors what he sees on television and what books he reads and they took that choice (wow, what a word, choice) out of her hands. I called the city and voiced a complaint because if it happens again I just might not be able to hold back next time.
As far as the murder, I thought judgement was in God’s hands. The Dr., not matter what you thought, was not breaking the law.
When you are being snide about the baptisms, just remember that it’s probably the parents that request them. That what they are doing has been well thought out and is probably breaking their hearts, otherwise they wouldn’t want photos and/or a baptism. They are most likely desperate. Late term abortions are not easy on the body like first trimester abortions so it’s not something easily gone into.
I don’t like them, I would encourage my daughters not to have one, but they are legal. I also don’t think I have the right to make that decision for anyone else.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:44 am
Basically, some of you are condoning cold blooded murder in a church, right? I don’t agree with Dr. Tiller’s chosen profession. BUT I feel it was his FREE AGENCY to choose. Not mine. And the women who came to him made a choice. Many were there with heart wrenching decisions to make. Very few were there because at 7 months, they decided to end the baby’s life. We are allowed on this earth, to make our own choices – right or wrong. Gunning a man down in a church, his place of employment, the street, his home, wherever is WRONG.
FYI – Even Palin said in a recent speech, she considered ending Trig’s life before he was born. But she gets worshiped, and not condememed for even thinking of terminating. Talk about double standards.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:46 am
Alex,
Tell me what we gained from the Iraq War?
Now tell me what we gain from late-term abortion?
Can’t really compare the two.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:50 am
112. We are allowed to make OUR own choices, but when those choices affect the lives of others it no longer is just OUR choice. Choosing who lives and who does not live is not our choice.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:59 am
113 – Stop twisting the analogy.
Abortion rights supporters see more to it than just “chopped up babies.” They see it as a young girl able to go on with her life without having a child she can’t take care of. Etc. To say “LOOK WHAT YOU SUPPORT!!!!!” with the signs does nothing to resolve questions like: do fetuses have rights? When should abortion be legal, if so/if not — etc, blah blah blah
June 1st, 2009 at 10:00 am
Knickers,
Applying your twisted logic, the gunman was making HIS own choice, just like Tiller the Killer.
June 1st, 2009 at 11:32 am
http://www.sarahpac.com/news/news32.aspx
Governor Palin Statement on George Tiller
“I feel sorrow for the Tiller family. I respect the sanctity of life and the tragedy that took place today in Kansas clearly violates respect for life. This murder also damages the positive message of life, for the unborn, and for those living. Ask yourself, ‘What will those who have not yet decided personally where they stand on this issue take away from today’s event in Kansas?’
Regardless of my strong objection to Dr. Tiller’s abortion practices, violence is never an answer in advancing the pro-life message.”
June 1st, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I am in the Choose Life camp and I am troubled by this but I didn’t nor would I shed a tear but It is still wrong and you don’t have the right to take his life. The Dr. would have faced his justice in the end, any person that believes in laws bigger than the one’s in books knows that.